Talim Gameplay Strength Analysis
While feeling slightly improved compared to SC3 Talim, unfortunately it feels that Talim in SC4 is low/mid tier at best, most likely low tier. A closer look:
RANGE:
Talim is a likely candidate for "worst attack range" in the game. There are only two other characters I would classify as similar but both have more range: Taki and Voldo.
It appears that Taki has little range as well as she holds a small knife. However, Taki has many tools for closing distance and also possesses many fast attacks as well as high priority attacks that make up for her range.
Voldo also apparently would be at a disadvantage as he is seen holding a small weapon as well. However, as a character has longer arms than Talim and also can stretch in amazing ways that allow him to attack with abnormally long range.
Taki can also "stretch" to a lesser degree...
Consider a total of four ranges: (X represents screen walls, Y represent characters, hypen/dash represents distance)
Long (Obviously limited by screen walls, perhaps only Ivy can reach)
Y---X----------------------------X----Y
Medium (Think just about max range give or take of Astaroth)
Y---------X--------------X------------Y
Close (Just about max range of Maxi/Soph/Raph)
Y-------------X-------X---------------Y
Closest/Adjacent (Within 1.5 body distances or less)
Y----------------X--X-----------------Y
Long range: Talim has 0 options;
Medium range: Talim has 1 option* to reach from Medium range, jumping in with her -> B+K move (wind assault);
Close range: Talim has limited options. WORST RANGE, more on this later it's deceptively horrible for Talim.
Closest/Adjacent range: Talim's best range;
Preferred distances are Adjacent and Medium range. Neutral is Long range (you can't do anything but neither can 99% of the cast)... Close range is plain awful. More on this later.
WALKING SPEED:
Talim is supposed to be a nimble/quick character yet I can see no obvious walk/run distinction between her and the rest of the cast.
ATTACK SPEED/GAMEPLAY:
Talim is a horribly designed/balanced character... looking at her attack range she's designed to get close. Looking at the rest of her attributes it's clear she's supposed to play a mixup game.
Yet the majority of her attacks are super slow, either in startup or in ending lag.
LONG/MEDIUM DISTANCE:
From Medium distance wind assault attacks A and B+K as someone stated in another thread are more or less safe on block. However there is a problem. Almost every character can mash their way on reaction out of your wind assault.
Did I mention free knockdown for the opponent?
Even on wakeup random mash beats outs Talim enough to make it a worthwhile option. Wind assault A + B somewhat deals with mashing or wakeup attacks but still gets beat out occasionally... let alone with the problem that occurs when it gets blocked...
However despite these problems Medium range is a preferrable place to be... if Talim focuses on dancing in and out of the opponent's range and tries to bait a whiff then rush in to Adjacent range she can get her game started. A suboptimal strategy would be to try to counter poke at this range which is extremely difficult and only effective against big whiffers like Kilik if he does -> A+B. Other attempts are dangerous... trying to poke with -> A+B of your own is easily sidestepped and has huge startup + lag. Trying to poke with her shoryuken move (236 + B) again is problematic... you can even get poked out of it while moving forward.
CLOSE RANGE... SO HORRIBLE:
Close range is a nightmare. A literal nightmare. "A"/horizontal attacks do not reach. The farthest reaching "A" attack which is -> A to A or K starts up extremely slowly and can be easily outpoked. Even if you land the attack you do not gain any significant advantage, and if your attack is blocked you are in trouble.
The 8 way run attack 22_88 A horizontal is ineffective as well. Huge startup and lag. And the worst part of all her horizontals:
THEY CAN ALL BE AVOIDED SIMPLY BY DUCKING.
*One exception below, one SMALL exception*
* The only good horizontal is her 2 + A... but you need to be slightly closer than Close range, and it does almost no damage even on counterhit. It can be blocked high as well.
Let's cover her vertical attacks. Her "B"/veritcal attacks are the decisive factor in locking her in lower tiers... they are so disappointing in her movelist that sometimes I want to throw away my controller in disgust.
Her regular BB chain is perhaps the most awful natural BB in the game. Once again, comes out slow finishes with lag. Even on hit. There are characters in the game that can simply out spam you, their BB, BB, BB, BB and you can do nothing about it... nothing SIMPLE about it that any other character could do. That's the problem with Talim you have to engage in these dangerous strategies because her natural toolset is awful.
Her BB is interrupted by almost any attack in the game and also does paltry damage. Did I mention that the first B will whiff at Close range? Namco made it even easier for Talim to get counter hitted...
Let's look at -> B (which results in back turned status). This move is awful as well. It comes out slightly faster than her regular BB but only slightly. It gets out poked by other regular BBs, gets out poked by regular AA's, and is only decent if it counter hits. On block or regular hit the only real safe option (Remember you are in BT or back turned status) is 2 + A or 2 + K afterward.
Any backturned attempt into B (the attack where she jams her elbow into the opponent) can easily EASILY be avoided by mashing. WALK BACKWARD OWNS THIS MOVE TOO.
And guess what? You just gave them a free counter hit. That's the #1 problem with Talim half of her moves give the opponent free counter hits if they simply mash.
The only useful application I have for this move is putting the opponent on defensive, whiffing a -> B to get closer then landing BT B on the opponent, hoping he would react slowly in trying to punish me. Not a very good strategy.
In the case that your opponent was dumb enough to not mash even on block you are at a disadvantage. Yay.
3B suffers from many of the same problems described above. You won't win a poking war with 3B. You can't interrupt most other characters with 3B... you can't punish many attacks with 3B... it can be easily sidestepped and RETARDEDLY MANY HORIZONTALS MASHED WILL BEAT THIS MOVE.
-> -> B (66B) Looks pretty but gets beatend out by random mashed attacks (classifies you as jumping yet it is a vertical?), has less range than it shows, OWNED BY DUCKING ONCE AGAIN, and startup has Talim leaning forward with no active hitboxes...
Now her kicks... K. Neutral K is decent, but only that. It seems the same speed as many other character's neutral K and can be ducked. Decent, but not very useful and certainly won't reach from Close range... need to Adjacent or closer.
-> + K is worth mentioning because you can sometimes catch a person off guard with it if they are being predictable with certain patterns as it causes recoverable stun and can lead into some damage. Problem? Still slow and still has lag and leaves you at a disadvantage on block. Another problem? Yes. Makes Talim move forward with no hit boxes active initially so you're walking into any possible attacks... once again counter hit city. Do not expect to win any "first attack" wars with this move.
1 + K nerfed so horribly no point in using it. Leaves you at a disadvantage in almost every scenario... horrid. Did I mention you will never get this off unless you are in Adjacent range?
2 + K is decent, but leaves you at a disadvantage and only usable in Adjacent range.
Let's look at Combination moves (A+B etc.)
A+B discussed in Adjacent range
-> A+B you will get outpoked, and punished for using this horribly laggy move that has deceptively little range. Characters can often be well within range and walk BACKWARDS out of the move.
2 A+B used to think this was a decent move it is usable as an OTG attack but unsafe otherwise. You can be punished at maximum blocked range after performing this attack. It starts up slow as well and can be beaten by mashing even retarded attacks that don't reach normally like neutral kick simply because Talim leans her face forward (hit me in the face) with no hit boxes in the startup of the attack.
1 A+B haven't found a use for this in Close range, in Adjacent range yes, but Close range it won't reach at all.
4 A+B need to experiment with this move from my memory I haven't found much use.
8-way run moves... the only possible useful candidate is 33A which is horribly nerfed and will most likely miss unless in Adjacent range, gets beaten out by random mashing, sometimes only one attack hits allowing opponent to hit you back even though you had hit them
All her other 8-way runs can theoretically reach but have horrible startup time and will get beaten out by mashing.
The final reason why Close range is awful to seal the deal is because Talim has no reliable way to stop the opponent from 8 way running as her AAs do not reach, but she is unable to 8 way run because her opponent's AA's CAN REACH.
ADJACENT RANGE "BEST RANGE" WHICH STILL IS MEDIOCURE:
At adjacent range, Talim gains some effective options in addition to what was mentioned before. Only major reason is because she gains a somewhat decent trap/mindgame involving throws and the opponent waking up into A+B and that now no one can safely 8 way run. She can barely punish with OTG. Her other major weakness isn't fixed... which is that she still does not have a quick reliable vertical attack to close distance/crush mashing or bait counter hits. She also has no reliable way of hitting ducking opponents.
AA chains become effective... would classify AA as slightly faster than the normal AA speed. Still problematic as ducking completely owns all her "A" options.
BB becomes completely ineffective. Almost every normal attack in the game beats out Talim's BB up close (unless we're talking about unblockables or astaroth mashing BB)
A+B chain is a great attack... but starts up SO slowly and sometimes hits then whiffs the opponent . ++ points because it hits ducking opponents...
Mixing up A+B chains on opponent's waking up with throws is pretty much the best she can do which is pretty sad. If you try to punish mashing wakeups with anything else half of the time you will get beat out which is really sad. 33A is barely effective at punishing mashing wakeups... if you mistime it the opponent can wait for you to finish then counter hit you...
11 KA is good but it is difficult to land the attack. Long startup and considering that mashing beats out almost every move Talim can throw out, attempting to condition the opponent to stay still and eat this move is extremely difficult.
33 KA is theoretically good again, but its effectiveness is extremely diminished considering how horrid the rest of her movelist is. The first kick hits HIGH and has long startup.
A+K another theoretically good move is shit because of the rest of her movelist. DUCKING OWNS A+K WHICH OWNS 99% OF THE REST OF HER MOVES.
The only reliable attack that can effectively hit ducking opponents in Talim's arsenal is A+B. However it has long startup. Ducking owns the majority of her moveset.
ABOUT WIND CHARMER ETC. ETC.
First thoughts on 4 B+K (or <- B+K)
The mere fact that you must jump forward after you leap backward (there is no way to cancel the motion) reduces this move to average at best. WALK BACK OWNS THIS MOVE. Let's look at your options:
TO "A": WALK BACK OWNS THIS MOVE, somewhat safe... if the opponent doesn't know that he can counter hit you out of it that is...
TO "B": WALK BACK AND DUCK OWN THIS MOVE, UNSAFE
TO "K": WALK BACK AND DUCK OWNS THIS MOVE TOO.
Now thoughts on 2_8 B+K...
Mashing destroys all attempts. The only time you will successfully land an attack off of 2_8 B+K is either off of a combo or if the opponent reacts slowly. Almost every character can on reaction mash a quick attack and knock you out of 2_8 B+K regardless of what you do.
Now it's nice and pretty to set up attacks like 2_8 B+K into A+K to low ringout or 2_8 B+K into K to mid ringout... problem is mashing destroys all these possibilities, and if the opponent stays calm he blocks high by default and waits for Talim to twist and kick... otherwise if Talim leaps into the air he can easily by reaction block low.
TO TOP IT OFF, TALIM HAS THE WORST DEFENSE IN THE GAME, DEFENSE NOT STAMINA.
Talim must manuever into range and will take damage trying to get to Adjacent range.
Talim cannot 8 way run once in Close range, yet her opponents all can 8 way run her with ease because none of her horizontal attacks reach.
Any time Talim is knocked down she is well within reach of the opponent (save getting hit by unblockable gunshot from cervantes or stuff like that) and is at the mercy of the opponent to be attacked over and over again.
Because of forementioned speed/priority problems, Talim gives free counterhits nonstop. This leads up to free damage and huge combos being inflicted on her.
She has few moves that OTG (aka hit downed opponents) well and they all require her to be at Adjacent range. Opponents can easily avoid followup attacks.
Talim gives more free counterhits because she often runs into attacks or gets interrupted trying to 8 way run.
Due to reliance on blocking, she is critical finished easier, and consequentially, it is more difficult for her to land a critical finish.
So in conclusion some highlights for those too tired to read through the entire post:
- No obvious walking/run speed advantage
- Movelist is laggy or slow to startup
- Worst range in the game
- Worst defense in the game (not to be confused with stamina)
- Weak/subpar critical finish game
- Easily avoidable movelist/predictable patterns
- Inabililty to rely on basics to win
- Low damage output
Looking for constructive discussion.
If it sounds like I have a very negative view of Talim it is because I am frustrated. She's my favorite character to play but she is so underpowered that playing her becomes a chore.
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(Dù cùng là sh1t như nhau)
